Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views  

Originally Posted by Sageous:
Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer?  I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer.  Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity.

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Sageous, no disrespect intended, but I find it difficult to understand your logic in disfavoring stabilization techniques. In fact, I can't help thinking that what you've said is a bit contradictory. You appreciate how amazing a few seconds of an LD can be, yet scoff at the idea of spending a few more seconds to stabilize the LD, in order to obtain even more seconds of lucid wonder. When you feel your LD fading out, maybe you just let yourself wake up, but for me personally, taking a few seconds to use a stabilization technique, and then extending the LD for another 10 minutes or so, is worth it to me...and I consider it one hell of a pay off.

Originally Posted by Sageous:
So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing:  To have fun, learn, and grow.  To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is.   Think about it.

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It's certainly not missing the point, in fact, it exists solely to allow LDers to be able to spend more time doing exactly what they love, having fun, learning, and growing in LDs. How is taking 5 seconds to stabilize, then getting several minutes of amazing lucid as a result of stabilizing..."miserable".


Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours" – from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible.  Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate.

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Actually, it IS possible, and I've done it, many times. I have had nights where I spent up to 4 hours at a time lucid dreaming. This is possible physiologically because REM is not the ONLY time that we dream. People can also dream in NREM, the dreams are just no where near as vivid or dreamlike as REM, but there have been many times when I have been lucid dreaming for a whole REM period, then enter a period of NREM, and continue to dream, and during NREM I seem to have a lot of OBE-type dreams, but I stay completely lucid and eventually enter another REM period, which usually comes quickly (I think I am somehow forcing my brain into REM by focusing on forming a dream and stimulating certain areas of my brain). The longest I have done this for is 4 hours, and I've done it several times.

But during that 4 hours I used stabilization techniques quite often...sometimes every minute, sometimes every 5, 15, or 30 minutes, depending on where I am in my REM cycle and how easy it is for my mind to remain in the dream. But again, what's a few seconds...when this means your dream is going to last another several seconds, minutes, or hours? I cannot understand why anyone would chose NOT to use stabilization methods, unless they can magically have lucid dreams that last hours with using any stabilization methods...in which case, they would be an exception, as I have never heard of this before.


Originally Posted by Sageous:
But dropping everything for the sake of a few more seconds of a dream simply does not make sense to me... in fact, to me that seems counter-intuitive....Extend away, but don't abandon the glory of the dream for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor. It's the LD that is precious, and not its duration.

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I don't think you understand. This is not for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor, or in my case, examining my hands or using verbal commands...it is because the stabilization technique will allow you to remain in your precious LD for even longer, and increase its clarity. When I sense my LD fading out, that I'm going to wake up, or things become blurry, I use a stabilization technique, and instead of waking up...I am then able to remain in my LD for several more minutes, and as a result of stabilization, the LD is also crystal clear, extremely vivid and highly enjoyable. So what you label as counter-intuitive, is very counter-intuitive to me.

Originally Posted by Sageous:
That leads me to how very long LD's work, physiologically:  yes, your REM cycles limit dream time, but it is possible to "jump" REM cycles, especially during LD sessions occurring after at least eight hours of sleep.  How?  By sensing that wakefulness is coming soon (I usually hear my breath, or my white noise machine in the background of the dream), and preparing to "hold on" to your dream and self-awareness while the brief pause of wakefulness passes.  This is not hard to do, with practice, and is very similar to the DEILD technique.  So, physiologically, you can both bypass the sleep cycle and potentially extend REM for quite some time beyond "natural" limits.  Again, I find it odd that someone with your vast experience does not know this, since a lot of us do it all the time. It is not a secret.

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While I dislike your overall sardonic tone towards CosmicIron, I agree with what you've said here.  

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
Did you feel any fatigue after that, did it take effort? I'm wondering if it's possible to have fully restful sleep after 4 hours of lucid dreaming.

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I've never felt fatigue after a night of lucid dreaming. The only times I've ever felt fatigued from LDing were while napping in the afternoon, where I would have what I used to call marathon lucid naps and chain a dozen or so LDs over the course of 1.5 - 2 hours. It would become incredibly exhausting after the 2 hour mark, and I would usually choose to just stop and allow myself to wake up at that point because I'm too tired to continue sleeping, an odd notion, I realize. When I would finally wake up, sometimes I was so exhausted that I would literally have to roll out of bed. I believe that the reason I would become so exhausted during those naps, was because my body would often times enter and exit SP in between some of the LDs, so I would be going in and out of SP/vibrational state several times within just an hour or so, and I assume this might be physically taxing on the body's systems in some way. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. But when I spend hours LDing at night, I usually remain in SP for most of the time, and only enter and exit a few times during natural transitions to and from REM to NREM.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
On focusing on areas of the brain, that reminds me that in a recent lucid dream I felt the dream collapsing and when I lost visuals focused on fast forward motion, like my whole body was being propelled froward. A new dream scene formed but during that motion I felt a sort of mechanical scraping in the centre of my brain, I'm not sure if it was a hallucination or an actual physiological response in my sleeping brain.

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Yes, that's it exactly, I like how you describe it as fast forward. Basically I focus my attention and my gaze upwards and forward...and it pulls me into a lucid dream much quicker when I do this. It will often feel as though I am accelerating forward. I can actually feel when the area of activation in my brain changes, from the middle central area, to the front. I assume you're able to sense this due to a lack of external stimuli, which greatly tunes you into any internal changes, as well as the magnitude of synchronous neural firing during these physiological changes. The neural oscillations usually start for me in the middle central area, and when I focus forward, the oscillations clearly move to a position in my frontal lobe. At this point, the dream starts, so I assume both of these regions of the brain must be important in sleep/lucidity.  

Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading.  I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV.  Good luck lucid dreamers!

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No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck.