Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views  

Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
1. Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively. It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited. In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up. It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling.

2.  Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users.

3.  Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous.  Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals.
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Amen.  

Great guide Cosmic! I like your method of floor crawling as a way of stabilization, I have never tried it xD! I always forget to stabilize, I usually just RC, then run off and do something else... I did rub my hands together once in a LD, but it barely did anything.  

These are some great tips, I think it will definitely help me for I have been having issues with short LD's, Thanks for the guide.  

Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
I'm not sure why you replied nothing except with a link to another article.  My guess is that you are implying my post is a duplicate of effort and thus having little value.  I read that article carefully.  While I agree with the basic principles, I think it is far from being the end-all solution and could definitely benefit from additional ideas.  For example, the crawling technique is a much better stabilization technique than hand rubbing.  The principle which one should not be thinking about the physical body is especially critical during an OBE... And there are many more if you read my post carefully.  Also I do not agree with some of the techniques recommended by that article, to name a few:

1.  Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively.  It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited.  In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up.  It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling.

2.  Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users.

3.  Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous.  Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals.

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Well you sure are quick to make assumptions. I don't think anything you said is a "duplicate", nor did I imply this. I was running late for work and thought you'd appreciate a link to a tutorial I had written if you hadn't already seen it. Also, you clearly did not read it carefully as you claim, as all three of your points were addressed in what was written.

(You have a lot of good info to share, don't be so defensive, and I apologize if my intentions were unclear with the link I posted. Also I would be happy to add some of your input to the tutorial if you would like me to.)  

I don't know, CosmicIron...

I read your OP, and, though I imagine all the things you say to do would work fine, I'm still a little puzzled.

Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer?  I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer.  Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity.

Another quick note about lengthening an LD that you may have left out:  you can do all the crawling you want, but if you lack proper self-awareness, your LD will fade regardless.

Also, I pretty much break every one of your rules in every LD and never practice stabilizing techniques, yet my LD's are often very long (lasting hours, sometimes).  How can this be?  Could it be because I'm simply enjoying the moment rather than being concerned about how long that moment lasts?

So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing:  To have fun, learn, and grow.  To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is.   Think about it.

Just my opinion; take it or leave it.  

Originally Posted by Sageous:
I don't know, CosmicIron...

I read your OP, and, though I imagine all the things you say to do would work fine, I'm still a little puzzled.

Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer?  I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer.  Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity.

Another quick note about lengthening an LD that you may have left out:  you can do all the crawling you want, but if you lack proper self-awareness, your LD will fade regardless.

Also, I pretty much break every one of your rules in every LD and never practice stabilizing techniques, yet my LD's are often very long (lasting hours, sometimes).  How can this be?  Could it be because I'm simply enjoying the moment rather than being concerned about how long that moment lasts?

So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing:  To have fun, learn, and grow.  To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is.   Think about it.

Just my opinion; take it or leave it.
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How can you "enjoy" a lucid dream if it only lasts minutes, if not seconds, especially after you have put in great effort to make it happen?  I simply do not see the logic behind that.  Let's face this – pre-mature termination of lucid dreams and abrupt false awakenings during an LD is common among even very experienced lucid dreamers.  The stabilization routines provided here do not take long to execute, but they will immensely extend the duration of the dream, and at the same time, help increase the user's lucidity, self-awareness (which as you pointed out is an important factor for the overall experience), and quality of the dream constructs.  

From your saying you are essentially declaring the entire subject (extending lucid dreams durations) unnecessary, which I have to disagree.  The truth is, not all LDers have 2k+ lucid dreams in their life, and they can certainly benefit from every bit and pieces of information which may help them extend the duration of their precious lucid dreams.  As a side note, I do not know how you manage having very long LDs while NEVER practice any stabilizing techniques.  To my knowledge, even the most experienced LDers need the help of stabilization techniques; they just sometimes perform them intuitively, like a second nature.  I have had many thousands of LDs throughout 20+ years of research and practice, yet I cannot make such bold claim that stabilization techniques are unnecessary.  If you have a secret to that then please share with us.  BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours" – from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible.  Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate.  

Uh, the using senses is common stabilization yes. And I said some people, I know some guys who can't go all into full-detail visuals right after the dream start or it will go away.

Not true with logic, why don't you try the lucid nightmare? There is an huge difference between abandoning logic and keeping your mind calm, which seems to be what you are referring to.

Well I don't believe AP to be real, so that point is moot in my case (And yes, I have tried it). Also after some experiments with online people, the eye problem seems to be more placebo than reality for dreams, a lot of people who had never heard of such a thing as dream/waking body could close/open eyes without any problems, but as soon as they read about it opening waking eyes the problem started.

The point is that not only can you start with a fresh mind, but also with the full intent to stabilize and have a longer dream because of REM-chaining.

Also what you said to sageous about hour-lucids, I know a girl who got insomnia problems, so she goes without sleeping for a few days and then the rebound allows for the hour-lucids with ease, it isn't impossible, just not very healthy/normal.

In your OP it seems like you were making sweep statements, which just doesn't works for dreaming just like you pointed out in your last post. I have helped a lot of people too, doesn't means that I am right or wrong though.  

Oh, that I know some guys who upon reaching lucidity, must try to NOT use their senses on the dream, even more so visuals or it will go third person and they will have an high chance of losing the dream.

Simply being lucid will tell you its a dream, it won't let you escape fears because you won't go into the logical explanation that it can't harm you since it is a dream and your real body is safe in bed, by what you described.

It is common? The only common trend I see is in forums or blogs, where the teacher tells them what stuff works for them and placebo hits their dream. Really, not me nor anyone I know that were not feed the "feeling your real body in a dream will wake you up" or "closing your eyes will wake you up" stuff don't have a problem with it. Then again, thats just my personal experience.

Also why would you worry about that if you use logic? "My dream is paralyzed in waking, not to worry" seems like a simple thought process to me, no reason to worry or make extra problems there.

Ofc I do, but you said it was impossible, just pointing that with dreams ruling out or making sweep statements never works. Or at least, I haven't seen it work for anything as of yet.

And who said the entire subject was useless? I posted the points I disagree with and explained why, I don't believe that everyone will experience dreams in the same way I do so it isn't useless at all.

And I do think ruling logic out of the dream can be bad for some people, along with the body thingy, especially for those who do the kind of RCs I do, because not only do I stabilize while using it, but estimulate logic and body-awareness while using it and that's how I get most of my lucids, and know the RC works for some others too. But as I said before, that it helps some people doesn't makes me right or wrong, just another lucid dreamer.  

Hukif,

Though your whole post was good, I felt that just a bit of it bears repeating:

Originally Posted by Hukif:
It is common? The only common trend I see is in forums or blogs, where the teacher tells them what stuff works for them and placebo hits their dream. Really, not me nor anyone I know that were not feed the "feeling your real body in a dream will wake you up" or "closing your eyes will wake you up" stuff don't have a problem with it. Then again, thats just my personal experience.

Also why would you worry about that if you use logic? "My dream is paralyzed in waking, not to worry" seems like a simple thought process to me, no reason to worry or make extra problems there.

Ofc I do, but you said it was impossible, just pointing that with dreams ruling out or making sweep statements never works. Or at least, I haven't seen it work for anything as of yet.

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Full agreement, both points, and I think your first point may well be what all my words were driving at...  

Last night I had an hour+ long lucid! I remember specifically using the floor crawl technique, I don't know if that kept me lucid or my constant nose RCing. Probably both, but thank you for your tips anyway!  

Nina:

First, an apology:  I'm sorry that your first post to me had to be one forged in negativity; I really like reading your posts, and had hoped that we would meet under more happy conditions.  I'm also sorry that you wasted so many words on something I have no real problem with -- my problem was with CosmicIron's overall stance and attitude, and I was trying to dig beneath it; I'm fine with stabilization techniques and, as Mr. Iron noted above, I  even practice them myself.  

Now:

Originally Posted by nina:
Sageous, no disrespect intended, but I find it difficult to understand your logic in disfavoring stabilization techniques. In fact, I can't help thinking that what you've said is a bit contradictory. You appreciate how amazing a few seconds of an LD can be, yet scoff at the idea of spending a few more seconds to stabilize the LD, in order to obtain even more seconds of lucid wonder. When you feel your LD fading out, maybe you just let yourself wake up, but for me personally, taking a few seconds to use a stabilization technique, and then extending the LD for another 10 minutes or so, is worth it to me...and I consider it one hell of a pay off.

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Don't worry, I'm fairly immune to offense.  As I already said, I do not disfavor stabilization techniques -- any process that can extend the experience of an LD is most welcome, and would be worth mastering.  What I disfavored was CosmicIron's contention that the stabilization technique was all that mattered.  It seemed to me -- and he did not deny -- that he thought it was more important to stabilize the dream than it was to participate in it. That deserved comment, I thought.

In the name of consistency, if you've read my posts here, you'll remember that I have often voiced my concern about making techniques -- especially WILD -- the goal, rather than using them as a tool for lucidity.   I consistently have no problem with the tools of the trade -- I use them (all, apparently) all the time, but I do have a problem, and will shout about it every time, when I see those tools turned into the trade.  That is wrong, and possibly very misdirecting. All I could imagine was some 14-year-old newbie leaving behind his newfound interest in lucid dreaming because he thought it would be something more than crawling on the floor and staring at small objects. So I asked the question: which is more important, a great short LD, or a slightly longer LD where the only thing brought home from it is a 10-minute struggle to stay lucid?  My bad, I suppose, but I'm likely to do it again.

So no, I do not scoff the idea of spending a little more time in a LD, I value that deeply, and using stabilization techniques as you describe them -- as tools for extending the LD -- is a most welcome thing.  I may not use those techniques myself (and have a real problem with things like abandoning reason, ignoring my sleeping body, and, of course, potentially disrupting the entire fabric of the dream by crawling on the floor), but that doesn't mean I don't think the idea of stabilization is a good thing -- which I believe I said somewhere up there.  No, I scoff at those who raise techniques above the dream, and tell me I'm wrong for asking why this is so.

  It's certainly not missing the point, in fact, it exists solely to allow LDers to be able to spend more time doing exactly what they love, having fun, learning, and growing in LDs. How is taking 5 seconds to stabilize, then getting several minutes of amazing lucid as a result of stabilizing..."miserable"?

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It is not, and if CosmicIron had offered that paragraph to me, my posts here would have been much different.  Again, I understand stabilization, and 5 seconds -- even 10 -- of it to add another 10 minutes of dream seem a no-brainer.  Had CosmicIron responded that succinctly, without lecturing me about how wrong I was and how right he was because of all his thousands of LD's and all the thousands of LD'ers he'd "worked with," and then deem my "claim" of long LD's a lie, I likely would have done a mea culpa and stepped away.  But he did not, and I did not.  Sorry for that -- but it really had nothing to do with stabilization. Also, it would have been nice, I suppose, if I had succeeded in making my point that there are such things as excellent short LD's and they can be forgotten if overridden by attempts to ressucitate them. Not sure it would have made a difference here, but it would have been nice.

Actually, it IS possible, and I've done it, many times. I have had nights where I spent up to 4 hours at a time lucid dreaming. This is possible physiologically because REM is not the ONLY time that we dream. People can also dream in NREM, the dreams are just no where near as vivid or dreamlike as REM, but there have been many times when I have been lucid dreaming for a whole REM period, then enter a period of NREM, and continue to dream, and during NREM I seem to have a lot of OBE-type dreams, but I stay completely lucid and eventually enter another REM period, which usually comes quickly (I think I am somehow forcing my brain into REM by focusing on forming a dream and stimulating certain areas of my brain). The longest I have done this for is 4 hours, and I've done it several times.

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Thank you.  I hope that CosmicIron is still reading, and wonder if he will contradict you as well, in the same tone.
But during that 4 hours I used stabilization techniques quite often...sometimes every minute, sometimes every 5, 15, or 30 minutes, depending on where I am in my REM cycle and how easy it is for my mind to remain in the dream. But again, what's a few seconds...when this means your dream is going to last another several seconds, minutes, or hours? I cannot understand why anyone would chose NOT to use stabilization methods, unless they can magically have lucid dreams that last hours with using any stabilization methods...in which case, they would be an exception, as I have never heard of this before.

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I think I've said this enough, and I'm not sure if you're still reading, but:  I agree completely with everything you say here.  I am truly sorry that I led you to believe that I choose not to use stabilization methods -- I use them often.  My methods may be much different than those listed, but that does not mean there is anything wrong with those listed (except where I noted already).  Again, what I chose was to make the dream, and my experience of it, the priority, and nothing more.  If that experience can be extended by a bit of hand-rubbing, then fine, rub away...but if the hand-rubbing becomes the dream, then I think a question ought to be raised.

I don't think you understand. This is not for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor, or in my case, examining my hands or using verbal commands...it is because the stabilization technique will allow you to remain in your precious LD for even longer, and increase its clarity. When I sense my LD fading out, that I'm going to wake up, or things become blurry, I use a stabilization technique, and instead of waking up...I am then able to remain in my LD for several more minutes, and as a result of stabilization, the LD is also crystal clear, extremely vivid and highly enjoyable. So what you label as counter-intuitive, is very counter-intuitive to me.

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I do understand.  You.  Had CosmicIron used your words and tone, I likely would never have posted.
While I dislike your overall sardonic tone towards CosmicIron, I agree with what you've said here.
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  For what it's worth, I disliked my overall sardonic tone too; sometimes it is unavoidable, at least for me.  

Sorry again for eliciting all those words from you, Nina, they were not, in the end necessary (though they certainly were appreciated).  And, if you're still with me, sorry you had to read all these words here, as I feel I spent most of my time repeating myself. I fear that I may have wasted all of our time by reacting poorly to CosmicIron; I'll try next time to leave things like this lie.  

^^ I think so too... thanks!  

*]Immediately perform stabilization techniques upon becoming lucid.
[*]Immediately break away from previous dream plot and current dream environment after performing stabilization techniques.

[*]Always direct your focus to external objects and events.  Never think about your physical body.
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All great points, my main problems come from forgetting to do these things.[*]Resist rational thoughts.
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I'm sorry, as useful as the rest of your guide is, this is simply awful advice. Lucidity is the introduction of rationality into a dream, resisting rational thought is paramount to brushing off lucidity you've worked so hard to achieve. Personally I find lack of awareness to be a much greater barrier in achieving goals than dream scene stability. Why should rational thoughts be avoided?[*]Do not talk to yourself.

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Verbal commands are very useful in stabilising, everything you say in a dream is said to yourself.[*]Do not fly all the time.  Walking is recommended mean to travel.

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Again misguided. Where is the use of walking in an environment where physical distance exists only as mental construct of the individual's expectation? Any location is only as far away as an act of intent. Taking this into account, flying is also unintuitive as it presupposes the need for travelling physical distance. In dreams there is only mental distance. I find walking to be very risky, in walking there is no A-B ('I am here and I want to arrive there'), each step requires effort, you're constantly apart of the scene around you that is separating you from your desired destination, I find walking to be a minefield of possible distractions and lost lucidity. Not constructive for stability.[*]Treat small tasks as immediate goals.  For example, walking down that stair should be considered a "goal"; touching and examine that object should be considered a "goal".

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This is good advice, a beginner lucid dreamer should continuously establish new goals to avoid being drawn back into a non-lucid plot  

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
Did you feel any fatigue after that, did it take effort? I'm wondering if it's possible to have fully restful sleep after 4 hours of lucid dreaming.

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I've never felt fatigue after a night of lucid dreaming. The only times I've ever felt fatigued from LDing were while napping in the afternoon, where I would have what I used to call marathon lucid naps and chain a dozen or so LDs over the course of 1.5 - 2 hours. It would become incredibly exhausting after the 2 hour mark, and I would usually choose to just stop and allow myself to wake up at that point because I'm too tired to continue sleeping, an odd notion, I realize. When I would finally wake up, sometimes I was so exhausted that I would literally have to roll out of bed. I believe that the reason I would become so exhausted during those naps, was because my body would often times enter and exit SP in between some of the LDs, so I would be going in and out of SP/vibrational state several times within just an hour or so, and I assume this might be physically taxing on the body's systems in some way. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. But when I spend hours LDing at night, I usually remain in SP for most of the time, and only enter and exit a few times during natural transitions to and from REM to NREM.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
On focusing on areas of the brain, that reminds me that in a recent lucid dream I felt the dream collapsing and when I lost visuals focused on fast forward motion, like my whole body was being propelled froward. A new dream scene formed but during that motion I felt a sort of mechanical scraping in the centre of my brain, I'm not sure if it was a hallucination or an actual physiological response in my sleeping brain.

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Yes, that's it exactly, I like how you describe it as fast forward. Basically I focus my attention and my gaze upwards and forward...and it pulls me into a lucid dream much quicker when I do this. It will often feel as though I am accelerating forward. I can actually feel when the area of activation in my brain changes, from the middle central area, to the front. I assume you're able to sense this due to a lack of external stimuli, which greatly tunes you into any internal changes, as well as the magnitude of synchronous neural firing during these physiological changes. The neural oscillations usually start for me in the middle central area, and when I focus forward, the oscillations clearly move to a position in my frontal lobe. At this point, the dream starts, so I assume both of these regions of the brain must be important in sleep/lucidity.  

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
You seem to have indirectly achieved the aim of sleep yoga, to remain aware of all stages of sleep, I'd love to get to that level of lucid dreaming some day

Why don't you make a tutorial on how you WILD and DILD, it would be a great read.
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Well for me it comes and goes and really just depends on my sleep schedule, so it's not like I can do it every night. I think sometimes I just get lucky.  But I feel like there are already so many WILD/DILD tutorials even just on this forum that I wouldn't be able to add too much new content to make it worth the time it would take to write.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie:
It's interesting that you think that the sensations are due to becoming in tune with internal stimuli as that seems consistent with my experiences of sleep paralysis, during DEILD my brain seems to go haywire with chaotic whirring, buzzing and bleeping, it sounds like an old-fashioned dialup connection  If I try to remain aware of the transition to sleep when first going to bed I seem to get a few glimpses of this state, including exploding head syndrome. I've researched EHS and the scientific community seems to be at loss as to what it is, if only more neurologists were oneironauts.

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Exactly, I describe it very similarly, like a hard drive booting up. Also, I don't know if you've seen this thread before, or even if you've replied, but just in case you missed it, I basically explain my initial discovery of and exact method for using the fast forward thing we are discussing (I don't want to hijack CosmicIron's thread): http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/quickl...43/index3.html

Also, Exploding Head Syndrome is one of the things I probably hate most in this world. But I have formulated a few theories about what the eff is going on and even managed to stiffle it with a quick fix: http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/violen...lution-120785/  (and I just noticed you "liked" that thread so nevermind! lol)  

I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading.  I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV.  Good luck lucid dreamers!  

Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading.  I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV.  Good luck lucid dreamers!

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Sorry to hear that, CosmicIron -- the rivers can run deeply here, and swiftly.  I had always thought that a good thing, learning-wise, but to each his own.  Good luck!

I also hope that the thread stays up, as the conversation seems to have some real value in it.  

I don't agree with everything that everyone has been discussing here.  There is a lot of open ground regarding lucid stabilty and techniques.  I have personally asked CosmicIron to stay as he has made a great contribution to the forum with his SSILD induction.  

Originally Posted by Hukif:
Well if you don't agree, post away! We don't get mad at other people for having different views, it is all for the growth of LDing, no? And for the spiritual ones the growth of the spirit too. And who knows, maybe it is actually agreement with misunderstandings?

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I have been working for about 15 hours today and I haven't had the time for a lengthy reply  

Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading.  I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV.  Good luck lucid dreamers!

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No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck.  

Originally Posted by nina:
No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck.

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This is my last reply.  Lucid dreaming is a relatively under-developed territory.  To make it go beyond the cult status we need as many "newbs" as possible, and to make them at least taste some success.  If you guys are truly the experts, in comparison to my "quasi-expertise", then please help those poor individuals, instead of just showing off your lucid dreaming prowess and how advanced your skills are to the point it is beyond any tangible techniques.  Teach your stuff to thousands of people, make them your equal.  If you do that you have my full respect and apology.  Otherwise, go ahead turn this thread into your showroom on how your lucid dreaming expertise is so great that it defys the limit of physiology.  Do it as you wish.  I'm gone.