主题:Ada Right Wrong LucidityI believe it is safe to assume that I back ADA 100% when it comes to achieving lucidity. Its not for promotional reasons or any other nonsense. I have practiced ADA for a long time and at this point, I practice pretty much nothing else aside from DJing. ADA has increased my natural level of awareness within the dream state and led to more and better quality lucid dreams. Not only this, but it has provided me with a massive level of control within the dream state. I don't only think ADA should be looked at as a quality technique, I believe to be the absolute best practice for lucid dreaming and I have tried everything. Again, I didn't create this, I just compiled it into a tutorial because I was repeatedly asked about it back in the day. I can't imagine how many new dreamers have pm'd me or posted in the ADA thread and came away with their first lucid experiences soon after.:
Edit after rereading the posts in this thread: I
f you are in a dream and you are aware of your surroundings in the dream, that IS self-awareness. Everything in your dream is yourSELF. That is all you and your creation. Your in your own mind. If you guys are going BD and you think the dream state is actually another "realm" (for lack of a better word) or there are beings and all these other unproven aspects, then yeah, ADA might not be for you. This is not a BD technique (in the way I wrote it anyway). The tutorial/compilation was written by me in a manner that directly correlates to lucid dreaming. I left out any form of spirituality aspects that Buddhists Monks use dreaming for. There is no spiritual, yoga, or any sort of religious aspects to the way it is written. Its only for awareness and only used to increase the lucid experience and frequency. I lucid dream for entertainment. I'll the leave all the BD stuff to everyone else. I could explain in great detail how and why it works, but it is described in great detail in my tutorial. Its not like I just said the technique, I explained how and why it works.
I didn't call it mindfulness because that is more along the yoga, Buddhist, meditation type of term. I have no interest in any of those things. My ADA, is for lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming only. If someone wants to take it to the spiritual level, then cool. I can and will still help them practice the technique without any form of bias, but the spiritual side is not in my area of expertise.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
King Yoshi: First, rest assured that I had no idea you had an ADA tutorial, and this is in no way an attack on your work or your opinion. Indeed, your input here is most valued!
I think you and I have very different views of what self-awareness is, as I believe it is not just awareness of your surroundings in a dream (or waking life); it is awareness of your presence in those surroundings and an awareness of the interaction of your presence with the surroundings, and they with you. That difference, I think, is significant. Also, dreamers are generally quite aware of their surroundings in any dream, whether lucid or not. If they weren't, then NLD's would effectively not exist because, since if non-lucid dreamers are unaware of their dreams' surroundings, those dreams would never be recalled (that sounded better in my head).
I hope you'll share more, especially with regard to how ADA increases control, how it can be used as the only tool for inducing lucidity, and perhaps how, without self-awareness (as I've defined it above) in the dream, you are able to differentiate between actual LD's and NLD's about LD's.:
That's all I dare say for now, guys, and feel free to ignore me if I got in the way of the conversation. Thanks again for posting, and I look forward to more...
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No worries. I just assumed you knew I had wrote the tutorial. I wrote the one that initially coined the acronym, ADA, and brought the idea of using it for lucid dreaming to DreamViews. Your talk of self-awareness is exactly how I describe performing ADA. Being aware of your surroundings and how their presence feels and effects the dreamer. Our views are the same. What ADA does, is train yourself to recognize that you are within a dream, simply because you ARE within a dream. The awareness you build in waking life helps you differentiate the natural feeling of being awake as opposed to being asleep. I become lucid in my dreams because I "feel" it is a dream. I just know its a dream because I have trained myself to recognize the difference between the two states without resorting to any sort of ques or direct methods. If you want to know how ADA was initially introduce here, give my tutorial a read . I have been gone for a long time, so I have no doubts that some have altered the views and see ADA a bit differently from what was initially intended.
ADA not only helps with achieving lucidity, but with recall, dream control, clarity, and nearly every aspect of lucid dreaming.
Lol, mindfulness and the basis of ADA (the background and its extensive usage in every day life for spiritual, yoga and other reasons) have indeed been around for a long time. Buddhist Monks are one known practitioner for using this basis to gain lucidity. ADA, the acronym, the title All Day Awareness, and the initial written technique used specifically for recreational lucid dreaming is all me .
The DV wiki definition came after and was created from my tutorial, btw.
Lol, I don't claim to own any products. Slow down chief. Mindfulness and awareness have been around since the dawn of time. Its like sports. No one created "sports," but someone named and outlined a specific one called football. Just like no one created mindfulness and awareness, but someone (yours truly) outlined and named a specific form, ADA (All Day Awareness). I, literally, created the term and acronym as I was writing the tutorial . You can google it if you wish and try to find it used prior to the creation, but its not going to be found. I'm not going on a power trip here, I wrote the tutorial to help others achieve lucidity and that only. I had no intention of it becoming as popular as it has, but I'm grateful and I do take some pride in that. Its got a lot of views and its a catchy acronym I suppose. I guess that contributed to it being spread. I didn't realize how widely used it had become until I made my way back a few months ago. And, technically, as its posted on these forums, it is the property of DreamViews now anyway. When you see ADA used on this site, its 99% of the time used in reference to that tutorial or the DV Wiki term. The DV Wiki term actually came after and from that tutorial. I only claim to have created the title, acronym and the compilation. Like I stated in the tutorial, "I didn't create this practice," so you can relax on that front. Not sure why you are getting so worked up about it anyway. I was on staff and the Dream Guide Leader back when that tutorial was created. The mods all know me and i'm sure they didn't see you as stepping on any toes. I didn't even see it that way at all. Of course, I'm going to defend the practice.
As for the thread continuing, the users on this sight are talking about ADA, while you are referring to awareness and mindfulness. While similar and both from the same type origins, they are different things. ADA was created specifically for lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming only. While awareness and mindfulness are practices from the beginning of time.
"If you can't allow that, and continue to claim ownership of a practice (as I described in the OP) that has been around for centuries, well, then, I guess this thread simply cannot proceed. Too bad, too"
Lol, what do you expect? This clearly shows disgust and the fact you thought I was trying to take credit for something you felt was ridiculous to take credit for. That is called getting worked up. I didn't say angry, mad, or excited. You are going up against the wrong person here. My involvement on this site is purely for the benefit of others. You are relatively new here, so I suppose you just don't know much about me. Claiming ownership of something that isn't mine, is not in my style and has no benefit to me. Like I said, its all DreamViews property now anyway. ADA works and works very, very well. If you want to more details even after reading the tutorial, I'd be happy to explain as deeply as you wish. Just ask me any questions you may have and I'll get right to it.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
Okay. Maybe it was disgust. And, given that there will be an explanatory note from you regardless of what I say, no doubt starting with a condescending "LOL," I think you're making my point for me while eliminating any chance of useful conversation on this thread, and only making participation here that much less pleasant.
This thread was a mistake, and I offer my deepest thanks to those who (knowingly?) asked me to start it. I really don't have time for this.
Enjoy, King Yoshi.
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Of course, the "lol" was condescending. It is extremely justified after your off-base "disgust." Don't take it out on me because you accidentally created a thread not knowing all the background information. I'm sorry that you are upset, but what do you want me to say? lol.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
^^ Nice.
Apparently the disgust was justified.
All apologies to the earlier, less pompous participants of this thread; it was good while it lasted, and I am truly sorry for my own hand in helping trash it. All I can say is I tried.
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Pompous, lol. You made a thread saying that my lucid dreaming technique was not good for lucid dreaming. Sorry, bud. This thread was doomed from the beginning.
I'm neither childish, nor arrogant. The name calling is not coming from my end if you haven't noticed, . The title of your thread still has "ADA" in it. I'm not going to have ADA be discredited because you made a thread without knowing fully what you were creating. It IS DV's thread and I am very loyal to DV. ADA has worked wonders for lucid dreamers and its going to continue to do so. Stop trying to make this about you and me. This is about helping people get lucid. So, a thread that is off-base and could possibly give a lucid hopeful the wrong idea, should not be here. Its as simple as that. You have all these ideas of pompous arrogance and ownership of techniques on your brain, while I'm just looking out for the best interest of DV and this community. Maybe you should look into a mirror before you start dropping these labels on me, lol.
Definitely peace on my end. I respect Sageous for his vast knowledge on lucid dreaming and the contributions he makes to this community. I have even showed newbies some of his posts/threads prior to this. This thread, however, is off base and shouldn't have been created without even understanding what ADA actually is. On top of that, it was set-up as a debate type thread and I did nothing more than debate. I see no fault of any sort on my end, but I didn't lose any respect for Sageous. He just made a mistake...it happens. No worries.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
For what it's worth:
I just read the OP of King Yoshi's ADA/DILD tutorial and it seems it lines up nicely with the ADA as noted in my OP here. Also it pretty much parallels with "ADA" as its been practiced in the form of mindfulness and other meditative practices for centuries; no difference whatsoever, except that it is attached as a technique to LD'ing. So yeah, I guess we were debating, specifically, a portion of King Yoshi's DILD technique... had I known, I would have not done the thread or at least warned you (king Yoshi) of its posting. But here we are, regardless, and after a night's sleep I still think there is much to be discussed...
So your defenses are quite welcome, as they ever were. Only now in my opinion they are directly on topic -- whether I was aware that you coined ADA or not, since it seems I knew exactly what I was talking about in the OP, regardless of my ignorance of the DV-specific history.
As it turns out, we never needed to have that exchange last night ... I should have taken the high road and stopped to read your tutorial then, I guess. My bad; it was late and I was very tired. Water under the bridge?
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I could've taken the higher road as well. Even though I try not to bring it to the forums, I have a fiery, competitive personality that sometimes bleeds through in a non-competitive atmosphere. Even so, I never felt any hostility toward you and looked at the situation as more of a misunderstanding. Though, I still felt you should have handled/prepared for this thread differently prior to making it. So, I wasn't exactly going to give any free passes. Its all good though.
On the note about mindfulness...mindfulness deals with spirituality, self discovery, etc. All that nonsense is left out of ADA, this is simply for lucid dreaming. There are many differences in the mindset that you have going into ADA. In the way it was designed, its made specifically for lucid dreaming and is 100% effective. I have yet to go 1-on-1 with a dreamer that didn't have success with the technique.
Originally Posted by fogelbise:
I hope so I know Sageous has spent considerable time answering my questions and numerous other's questions and I see that KingYoshi has answered numerous questions as well over the years. They have that in common: attempting to help others on their quest for regular lucidity. I have not practiced ADA or at least not as described in the OP but I would like to add that further debate on this could potentially come to a consensus on what will help those seeking regular lucid dreams. Most methods related to ADA, awareness, mindfulness, etc, require a good amount of time and dedication and it would be good to know if they are beneficial to lucid dreaming if that is all that someone is looking for in practicing the methods.
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It IS very beneficial. Like I previously stated, I have yet to go 1 on 1 with a dreamer who has not had success with ADA. If you have any problems while practicing the technique, come to me, and I guarantee you we will hammer out success. This thing works. I've proven it with my own success as well as the success of the countless dreamers in my thread and in my PM box. Its not like something that is on the fence about whether it works or not, which is why I see no point in this thread. It works. Period.
Ok, quickly before the Braves game starts. I'm going to include excerpts from the written technique as well. Simply because it is faster. I'll go ahead and go into in-depth, "guru" mode since you guys are twisting my arm . I usually don't got this in-depth outside of a PM question/assistance or my actual thread. You bastards j/k .
ADA for achieving lucidity:
"If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?"
"At first, you will have to force yourself to be completely aware of your surroundings. The idea, is to try and become aware of absolutely EVERYTHING around you. After practicing ADA for a while, you will start to become aware of theses subtleties without forcing yourself. As you practice more and more, you will notice the subtleties being noticed quite naturally with little effort. Eventually, you will get to where you are no longer practicing All Day Awareness, you are actually living it. It will become natural for you. Once you have reached this level of awareness, the dream itself becomes your dream sign. Every thing you notice within the dream will become your RC."
Building awareness of your surroundings in waking life carries over into the dream state. So, once you get to the point that you are practicing ADA regularly and naturally, the same is going to happen in your dreams. Sageous, you stated earlier that everyone already has awareness in their dreams. While that is partially true, their level of awareness is the same in their dreams as in waking life. In waking life, if you look at a wall and simply see the wall in the "take it for granted" sense, then you are going to do the same in your dream. In an actual dream, however, that wall is nothing more than a creation of your mind. It can be solid, liquid, gas, or nothing at all, because it is truly nothing but a thought. With ADA, you get out of this "day walking" by increasing your awareness in waking life. You are noticing everything and recognizing that wall for what it truly is. Your mind learns "this wall is a wall BECAUSE I am in reality right now" without even thinking specifically about. Your entire environment is becoming your RC. Not just walls, but everything around you. In a dream, once you increase that awareness, your environment is not going to "feel" the same. Nothing around you is grounded in reality and you are training yourself to notice this difference. This isn't something that can be found in books or even in the knowledge of your average genius. Its something that only a lucid dreamer can understand. Its abstract and needs to be experienced to fully understand what I mean when I say "it feels like a dream." ADA provides that ability. I've been at this for a long time and not in the same sense as most, as I have been using this in the specialty format (recreational lucid dreaming only). I don't doubt there are other benefits for mindfulness and awareness, but I'm purposely not allowing my body or mind to take advantage of these benefits or even acknowledge them for that matter. This, I 100% believe, is the key to being permanently lucid.
Day walking excerpt for those who don't know/understand my terminology:
"Lets take for instance, you are walking your dog down the street. Be aware of everything around you. Hear your footsteps against the pavement, feel the cushion in the sole of your shoes contract with each step. Feel the muscles working in your legs as you stroll along, see your eyelids blinking, hear the sound of your breathing, feel your lungs expanding and your chest moving as you breath in and out. Smell the air as you travel through the neighborhood. Does it change? Does every breeze smell the exact same? Feel your tongue as it casually rests on the bottom of your mouth. Every structure around you has a shadow...do you notice them? Hear the pitter patter of the dogs feet, do you hear him panting? Most people hold the leash and walk down the sidewalk completely lost in their thoughts. Most don't even notice the control they are using to power their own legs.
You are sitting at the computer doing math homework. Feel the keys below your fingertips, notice how effortlessly your fingers fly from one key to the next without even having to think about the upcoming letter/keystroke. While you were reading the previous two sentences, did you take for granted the blinking process. What all sounds have you heard while you have been reading this tutorial? What does the air smell like? You shouldn't have to smell right now to answer the question. Have you noticed the shadows of everything around you? How about your lungs? Have you noticed them expanding and your chest moving. Have you noticed the air traveling up through your windpipe, across your tongue and passed your lips?
These are just a few of the millions of small details that the average person takes for granted or doesn't even bother to notice. It is almost like everyone is sleep walking while they are awake. If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?"
ADA for Recall:
"Not only does awareness help strive toward lucidity, but it also helps with recall. As you continue to practice ADA, it will start to carry over in your dreams. Even if you aren't getting lucid yet, you will start paying more attention to the dream environment. Making mental notes of what you see, hear, feel, taste, and smell. This will help make dreams much easier to recall upon waking up from sleep. It will also help you recall more details from your dream. Soon you will be having detailed journal entries that read almost like a story as opposed to a scattered series of events that jump around from place to place."
Increasing awareness in waking life increases awareness in your dream, we have established that. If you are naturally paying more attention to the dream and noticing things around you, you are implanting those memories and things you notice more firmly into your mind. Upon waking up, your increased awareness in that previous dream has provided you with enhanced recall. Think about it like this, you are at a bar, drunk, and sleepy. Your awareness is going to be shit. As soon as you walk outside you write down everything you remember about the table of people right beside you who didn't interact with. You are going to remember almost nothing. Now, the same thing happens to a sober guy who is a normal human and "day walking" like the rest of the population. He is probably going to recall a bit more than the drunk guy, but maybe not. Now, take a guy who was in the bar practicing ADA the entire time. He is going to have an enormous advantage in recall of that table if he was, in fact, practicing ADA correctly. Ridiculous amounts of detail are possible. The brain is powerful enough to have photographic memory and store those memories. Not saying ADA is going to give you photographic memory, but it is, 100%, going to enhance recall.
ADA for Dream Control:
Take everything you have read and keep it in mind as I speak here. Your awareness has increased from ADA practice, therefore your mind understands much better than a typical dreamer that these things in your dreams, all of these things around you are nothing but creations of your mind. The better you get at ADA the more your mind naturally understands and accepts these things. This allows the success rate of your techniques for dream manipulation to blast through the roof. Most dreamers look at something and say, "Its a dream so I can control this with my mind." Saying it and even thinking it, is not the same as truly 100% believing it and expecting it. So, while at times it does work to say something out loud and use another similar trick to get dream control to work, ADA improves the root of why these tricks work. With ADA, instead of saying these things, your training your brain to know and 100% understand these things at all times. It helps boost those little tips and tricks that we all use to manipulate the dream (without us even noticing why things are working better and more frequently). ADA doesn't help provide better tricks, it helps increase the effectiveness of ALL tricks. My dream control and recall and at a much higher level these days than before I started ADA. You can see the impact that ADA made on my dreams by looking through my old dream journal from beginning to end (not recommended, it is A LOT of dreams, but you can take my word for it ).
ADA for prolonging the dream experience, staying lucid & stabilization:
The number one way to prolong a lucid dream (aside from time dilation/manipulation if you believe in that), is staying immersed within the dream state and keeping "disconnected" from your actual body. If you have advanced awareness, you are always going to be more locked-in to the dream environment than someone who doesn't. Your awareness and ADA carries into this dream state and keeps you constantly involved in dream activity, because noticing your environment better IS dream activity. On top of that, your awareness boost allows you to keep a much firmer grip on your lucidity. If you have great awareness from ADA practice, you are going to be "feeling" the dream at all times. You are "resonating" with your environment and experience as you are exploring your dream. Its much harder to forget you are lucid even while playing into the "dreams hands." By this, I am referring to my own style of dream exploration. I'm always playing along with my dream plots and treating the dream world as if it is another alternate, true life (even though I don't believe this or get into BD aspects). This allows for my dreams to play out as more coherent adventures and create consistencies from dream to dream. Making it possible to continue dream plots and overarching stories from dream to dream. Its why my DJ is set-up in dream series' (kind of like tv series') and I'm able to create an epic that s across many dreams.
Stabilization is nothing more than a form of dream control. So, see dream control for why it also helps boost stabilization.
Now, you aren't going to start ADA and immediately become a dream master, but you WILL notice results soon. The better you get at ADA and the more natural you become at performing it, the better it will help in all of these areas. If you can get to the point that you are in a constant All Day Awareness state of mind, you will become forever lucid. That is my goal, but I'm a long way from that.
Edit: @tofur - even for someone who doesn't practice ADA, they can randomly "feel" that dream state. It just feels like they are in a dream, so they realize they are. You don't even notice this most of the time, your mind has experience the waking state and dream state your whole life. You are walking around and, BAM your lucid for no reason. Well, whether you realize it or not, your mind figured out it was a dream simply because it knew it wasn't reality. ADA and awareness helps to make this a regular thing. Almost all of my DILDs are because I just suddenly know I'm in a dream for no other apparent reason than that "this feels like a dream." Everyone has the ability to just randomly become lucid, its how many of us became lucid without prior knowledge to what lucid dreaming even was.
Originally Posted by Zoth:
You should try doing some research before stating things like that. They couldn't be more far than the truth.
Besides, let's clear one thing here:
It's not quite simple to determine the cause for lucidity in a DILD. In fact, it can be many times impossible. Spontaneous lucidity isn't something random: it actually refers to things like insight, some memory or event altering your perspective, and this doesn't need to happen in a conscious level. The areas of the brain active during a lucid dream don't turn themselves "on" just because.
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See, I don't need to do the research because it has already been done. Its already up here (points at head). Long before these new age lucid dreamers. I've been here for a long time and been doing this for a long time, so slow down young one. THE definition of mindfulness' first line = "Mindfulness (Pali: sati,[1] Sanskrit: smti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual or psychological faculty (indriya) that, according to the teaching of the Buddha, is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment ."
Its a Buddhist practice that I am SUPER familiar with. Whether your view of mindfulness is different from this, is none of my concern. Do not tell me I'm wrong because your version of mindfulness is different from the definition, lol. I don't believe in enlightenment, beings, or any spiritual things so I'm not going to go into mindfulness with you. I know what it is, and to me, everything except for its basic awareness is crap. Not saying its impossible, but I'm not into. I don't judge anyone who is and I still hold respect for them. I'm into things that other aren't so I understand.
As for your second part, WTF are you talking about? Of course it isn't random. Are you even reading my posts? Your mind is not randomly becoming lucid, it is feeling that you are in a dream as opposed to lucidity, whether you realize it or not. Your mind can distinguish reality from a dream, naturally. ADA helps you do this even more often. Its not random and nothing I ever said implied that I thought it was. C'mon Dream Guide.
Edit: Look Zoth, if you want to know what kind of awareness I'm talking about, GO READ MY TUTORIAL. It is explained in great detail. I just explained in great detail why and how ADA helps with recall and it IS awareness. Have you been practicing testing and experimenting with ADA in direct correlation to lucid dreaming for years? Do you have 100s and 100s of lucid dreams from using no other technique but ADA? This isn't nonsense I'm spitting, dude. This is research and experience.
No one knows why these techniques work? LOL. Sorry, bro, YOU don't know why they work. DOn't speak for everyone else. I get people lucid because I don't just tell them what to do, I explain why these things work. I don't lucid dream blindly, I figure out why something works and test it over and over and over again. No offense to the other DGs, but how in the fuck did you become a Dream Guide? This is coming from a former Dream Guide Leader. Sad.
Also, you discredited my statements that had backing and didn't even provide a reason. You said, "The fact that you don't remember your dreams is not because you aren't aware of them." And that is it, LMAO. Because you say it makes it true, even without explaining why? Who do you think you are? You are in the most important position on the site, as a Dream Guide, and you are sitting here spitting ridiculous nonsense as if you are a random noob troll? Wow, dude. Wow.
Originally Posted by Zoth:
Don't take this personally, but let's abstain from these particular comments, either directed to me, any other member, or even you. This is valid for everyone in this thread to make sure the discussion doesn't turn into a flaming war. Thanks
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You're linking wikipedia as an argument for research? When I say research, I actually mean going beyond googling mindfulness. It isn't necessarily linked to spirituality. But you seem to only know the concept of mindfulness related to it. Once again, I encourage you to do some research
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So you know it in an unconscious level? How do you backup this claim of yours? What is this feeling? Your mind knows it is a dream, but you don't? Then how do you know it knows?
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I know my mind knows because I have felt it. I have been living and breathing ADA and everything about it in regard to lucid dreaming for years. You haven't so you clearly do not understand the feeling of being in a completely normal dream when your mind begins to "feel" the dream and you become lucid. The dream state feels different in every sense than waking life once you get deep into ADA. How do I know? Because I am doing it and have been doing. Ask the 100s of dreamers that have become lucid from ADA. Everything I know about lucid dreaming including mindfulness aspects, come from experience. As in, I, personally, explore and researched these things from WITHIN THE DREAM. I didn't READ IT and assume it to be true. Do some research? How about you do some REAL research. As in, field research. As in, becoming lucid and explore these things from the source. Not reading what everyone else has written and suddenly claiming it to be true. Dreaming is not fact. There is NO written material from anyone that I will believe until lI prove it myself from with the dream world. Go do some REAL research rookie.
I love how you are trying to act responsible now that you are called out on your incompetence as a Dream Guide. This is no flame, its actually very disheartening to me.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...
Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'
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I'm clearly not talking to or about you. I know how old you are and how experienced you are. So, save these useless comments for the birds. New Age for lucid dreaming was not in the 70's in my eyes. Yours maybe, but not mine. So, I stand by it. And Zoth, is ignorant. Period. Not unintelligent, not stupid, but ignorant by its intended definition. Not by the insult.
How is a source other than your own experience within the dream, even valid to you? You seriously listen to someone talk about lucid dreaming and believe them without testing their knowledge or at the very least, testing how their knowledge could be true? Sorry, but my head is all I need for sources on lucid dreaming. If you think that is wrong, tell that to the 100s of dreamers who have used my experience along the way.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts...
Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'
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Originally Posted by tofur:
see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.
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More like bringing them together as one. The mind is complex and very abstract. Its hard to describe these things with words. Its more of a feeling.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
I think JoannaB's and King Yoshi have this pegged, but I had an additional thought:
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That may be exactly my problem with "natural" awareness training, because driving you to become just a witness may be an unintended and unwanted side-effect of awareness-only training.
Yes, becoming only that witness makes the dream world more stable, but it also makes it more real, and your dream less lucid. As King Yoshi said, you must remember that the observer part of you and the witness part of you (and the dreaming mind part of you, for that matter) are all you, and must be smoothly combined into one self-aware "You." If you only witness, then you sacrifice the union of all aspects of "You," and risk lapsing back into a NLD or waking up.
However:
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I think of it less natural intuition than a "sense" built into your consciousness that can sort of put it all together, at least at a very low, almost subliminal level. This sense need not be natural; indeed, I have a feeling that, except in children, this sense is far more often artificially infused through training than it is natural.
Perhaps that is the real value of ADA, as it both teaches you to have a special sense of your surroundings while, thanks to the constant practice with LD'ing in mind, building powerful expectations of having LD's. So, come dreamtime, your unconscious is already hard at work fulfilling your expectations while your ADA "habit" has got your DC "you" paying slightly elevated attention. Then, once the "feeling" is in place, your self-awareness and memory kick in and Bam!, you're lucid.
Hmm... Did I just turn back on myself to accidentally summarize the real value of ADA as LD'ing tool? Seems to all make sense...or am I just babbling?
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I know how, but I don't understand why the argument got escalated in the first place because its not like we are THAT far off from looking at this the same way. This sounds like you are getting it and made valid statements. As for the "more real" part you mentioned, that doesn't mean you have to be less lucid. I don't get into BD, but I simply pretend as if the dream state is another reality (to an extent). By using the dream world to my advantage, I'm able to accomplish my goals and hold on to my lucidity no matter how real it seems. The ADA helps you know its a dream and hold on to your lucidity even if you aren't actively trying to remember this fact. I'm not saying its a magical cure for every dream problem, but it helps out and boosts in a ridiculous amount of areas. These days, it is the only technique I use for lucid dreaming besides DJing. Not counting DEILD chains, of course. I'm not saying its for everyone, but there is no way it can be detrimental to lucid dreaming.
Originally Posted by Sageous:
^^ The evidence is definitely leaning, for me, in the "undetrimental" direction. But I'm still of the mind that there is a hazard to having ADA be the only tool in your belt ... Keep in mind, King Yoshi, that given your experience, you already very likely have a whole beltful of tools on hand (ie, that "feeling" we were all just discussing).
In other words, I'm coming to the conclusion that ADA can be a powerful tool for LD'ing but, like all powerful tools it needs to be handled well and plugged into something... which I think you just said.
Holy crap, are we in some sort of agreement here? Were we always in some sort of agreement? Communication is a helluva thing, isn't it?
Well, I can agree about the numerous tools. I tell newbies all the time to soak up as much quality information as possible and never be afraid to experiment with other's techniques and mold them to fit their own mind. That feeling though, came from ADA practice. I didn't really have it regularly before, I suppose as much as any other LDer who get spontaneously lucid. The feeling comes from ADA practice and grows with your experience with the technique. I'm also able to WILD very well amongst other things, so my mind has gotten used to lucidity much more than the average user on this site (though still less than some, of course). I'm not saying it should be your only technique, but I'll always recommend it as the foundation for lucid practice.
We were always in some sort of agreement, not from the beginning, but after the first misunderstanding anyway. Some became distracted by perceived arrogance and lost sight of the matter at hand. While another probably milked it a bit after noticing that frustration to clear some of their own frustrations. It happens. There is a saying my buddies and I always had growing up, "I'm not cocky, just confident." Of course, it was said in a jokingly misleading manner, but the statement was always true.
Originally Posted by CosmicIron:
After reading through all the posts, I cannot shake the feeling that some people are making too many assumptions without evaluating them carefully. For example, the assumption that one gains lucidty by spotting oddities in dreams. As I mentioned in my previous post, it appears that LDs triggered in this fashion are actually relatively rare.
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I agree with this. ADA isn't about spotting oddities at all. Its about creating the awareness to distinguish between the waking state and the dream state, simply because they are not the same as each other. Its about building up a mental "feeling" that causes you to realize you are dreaming simply because you are not awake. I can't think of a better word to describe it because you don't physically feel it, but you kind of get washed over with lucidity. Still not a good way to describe it. Its very hard to put into words for someone who hasn't experienced it before to understand. The best thing I can tell you is to try ADA, specifically for lucid dreaming, so you can experience it for yourself. I do seem to just randomly become lucid, but its a constant thing and I find myself looking at a completely normal environment and thinking to myself, "This is a dream. This feels like a dream." Even if nothing out of the ordinary has happened the entire time. Its not just a sporadic event either, this is how I become lucid 15-20 times per month, on average (a complete guesstimation). It started happening more and more frequently after I started practicing ADA.
I'm not sure you were referring to me with the assumptions thing, but I thought you might be, so figured I'd say this. I don't say these things because I have heard them, I say them because I have experienced them and have helped countless others experience them.
I agree with many of the points here and understand some of the argument against....some. Anyway, there seems to be a general misunderstanding with how ADA works amongst some. While ADA can help with recognizing incoherence, irregularities, things out of place, etc, that isn't what ADA should be practiced for. ADA makes spontaneous lucidity a regularity to the point that it isn't spontaneous anymore. ADA teaches your mind to become lucid because you are in a dream. Not because you can tell its a dream, but because you KNOW its a dream. You just know it and realize it without anything at all happening within said dream from one point to another. That is the "feeling" I'm talking about for lack of a better word. Its not a physical feeling, its a mental feeling. A feeling of presence and nothing more. The presence of the dream I suppose. It almost needs to be experienced to be understood. With ADA, your mind is being trained to naturally distinguish between reality and the dream state. If you get deep enough into ADA with regard to lucid dreaming and are able to always distinguish between reality and the dream state, you will be forever lucid.
You guys say it can't be the only tool for lucidity and I can agree with that. It CAN be your only induction technique if you wish. I practice ADA, dream journal, and that is it as far as boosters and techniques go. I get 15-25 "spontaneous" DILDs per month (average at 20 per). At some point, its not "spontaneous" anymore....right? There is no way I could ever agree with anything that states that ADA, if practiced correctly, does not significantly boost lucidity....significantly.
ADA is NOT an intention technique. You don't have to believe it will work to build up the ability to distinguish between the two states (dream and reality). They are different. They aren't the same. Your brain is capable of realizing this. Its almost like building up an instinct to knowing you are in a dream. The skill begins to feel instinctive.
Of course, using intentions is a basic practice to enhance any technique. So, its recommended to use your intentions to lucid dream at all times.:
Originally Posted by VagalTone:
ADA is important but it07s not enough. If you also practice critical questioning/ RC then it is a wonderful combo.
So ADA+critical questioning is a synergistic interaction. ADA will help you remember to test your state while awake, help with vividness and recall while asleep.
Also, ADA may build intentionality ( but that07s not a ADA specific mechanism ). So, to practice ADA alone is, IMO, mainly an intention technique, which will only be helpful if you think so.
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I agree and that is why critical questioning of reality is written into the ADA guide. Its a part of it. Excerpt:
"Prior to performing your RC, take a moment to become aware of your surroundings. Even if you know that you are awake, pretend that everything around you is actually a dream. Finally, perform your RC and see if you are actually dreaming. A quality RC is a RC in which you question your reality."